Talking With Raccoon Logic – AAA to Indie, To Stadia and Back To Indie

Now and then, you hear about a story that's just interesting. Raccoon Logic, a brand new studio with a not insignificant IP (Journey to the Savage Planet) in their hands, is that story for me. I recently was able to speak to Alex Hutchinson and Reid Schneider about several things, ranging from their history within the games industry, their move from AAA to indie, to being a part of Google, to indie yet again, and Alex Hutchinson's absolute love of Flight Simulators. That last part may not be completely accurate, though we certainly spoke about a wide variety of topics.

Before we go into the conversation I had with Alex Hutchinson and Reid Schneider, let's talk about the five co-founders of the new studio and their roles as stated by a recent press release:

• Alex Hutchinson, Creative Director. Previously Co-Founder and Creative Director, Typhoon Studios/Google.  Before that, a creative director at Ubisoft Montreal where he directed Far Cry 4 and Assassin’s Creed 3. Other past work includes Spore, The Sims 2, and Army of Two: The 40th Day for EA.
• Reid Schneider, Studio Head and Executive Producer. Previously Co-Founder and Studio Head/EP, Typhoon Studios/Google.  Before that, a co-founder of WB Games Montreal, where he served as the Executive Producer on Batman: Arkham Origins and Batman: Arkham Knight, Schneider’s other past work includes EA’s Army of Two and Army of Two: 40th Day, Battlefield Vietnam, and the original Splinter Cell.
• Yannick Simard, CTO.  Previously Technical Director/Software Development Manager at Typhoon Studios/Google.  Before that, Yannick worked at Ubisoft in different Lead Programmer and Technical Lead roles on Watch Dogs 1 & Watch Dogs 2.  Other past work includes Army of Two, Army of Two: The 40th Day, Spore Hero at EA,  and Lead Engine Programmer at Eidos.
• Erick Bilodeau, Art Director.  Previously Head of Art of Typhoon Studios/Google.  Before that, he worked at WB Games Montreal as a Lead Technical Artist on Batman: Arkham Origins.  Other work includes Shawn White Skate, Far Cry 2, and Mighty Quest for Epic Loot.
• Marc-Antoine Lussier, Technical Design Director. Previously Principal Technical Designer at Typhoon Studios/Google.  Before that, he worked at Ubisoft Montréal as Technical Design Director on the original Assassin's Creed, Assassins Creed 2, Assassin’s Creed 3, and Assassin’s Creed Unity.  Other previous work includes Syberia and Myst 4.

The Google Typhoon - Reacquiring IP,  Choosing Raccoons over Pandas

You are likely aware, from looking at the five names above, are that the origins of Raccoon Logic are from Typhoon Studios. The developers of Journey to the Savage Planet were acquired by Google for the internal Stadia Games and Development Studios in 2019, only for Google to abandon all support for Stadia with first-party titles in less than two years.

Raccoon Logic was quite fortunate following this. Being the only studio acquired by Google, Typhoon also brought in their own IP. When I asked about their reacquiring of the IP, both were keen to say that Google was great to work with, though the company was slower at selling the IP than when originally acquiring Typhoon Studios. Specifically, Reid stated

Google, as a company, are used to taking things in - not necessarily selling things off. In the end, we're super appreciative, they were able to accommodate that and they realise there is a fanbase there, and people liked it. It was positive on all sides.

The acquisition was shorter than getting the code out, which is kind of funny.

With their IP, Raccoon Logic also acquired six months worth of code and R&D performed while at google, with twenty people at the founding of the new studio. Roughly three-quarters of the team are also pre-Google Typhoon Studios alum. Of course, they had to pay for this, with funding for the new studio being sourced from Tencent, which have come in as a minority investor.

In terms of Tencent as a partner, Reid had this to say:

They've been great partners. They understood exactly what we wanted to do and the vision of the type of games we want to make. There was never anything like "That's great, but why don't you make a battle royale or a MOBA?" Those conversations never happened, which is kind of awesome.

But what about the name? I did ask that question, and it's simply down to the name being quirky and memorable, Raccoons being seen as mischievous and the simple fact that all of the names seem to have already been taken. They want to stand out. But it may not have been Raccoons, a name Alex Hutchinson pitched was Trash Pandas. I then pitched a brawling game featuring pandas, using trash as weapons. Think hobo Kung Fu Panda. This will come up later, trust me.

Raccoon Logic and Publishing, Moving Forward

The issue with publishers is a topic I've talked about a lot in the past. Hell, it's far from a secret that making a deal with a publisher can often be like a deal with the devil. Not a good deal, but a terrible one. Publishers can make you change core elements that make the game stand out (Fuse and Haze), they could force in microtransactions (Middle Earth: Shadow of War), they may even decide the game needs to be different to what the series has been before (Dead Space 3).

This is to say that if you choose the wrong publisher, you're likely to find yourself compromising everything about your vision, and eventually being bought by EA and shuttered, or Activision and made to support Call of Duty, or just losing your job as a result of mismanagement (more on this later).

As for Raccoon Logic and publishing, I was naturally interested to see what was in their future, asking if they would go standalone and self-publish. Alex Hutchinson had this to say:

It's something we've talked about a lot. It would be very cool to get to that point, to have enough money to fund a game and get it out, and self-publish it. I think for the first one, the first couple at least, we'll be looking for a good partner to get up and running.

When asked if they've been in talks with anybody, the response was a clear yes - though names understandably can't be named for business reasons. Alex continued:

Well, the last one made money, it was visible and successful enough that we're a safer bet. People have reached out, but it's the opposite of speed-dating, it's slow-dating: You have the conversation, a month later you have another conversation. A year from now, maybe we'll go to dinner. There's nothing concrete yet.

It certainly seems that Raccoon Logic isn't in a rush for their first title, with the team in enough of a financially secure position to get the team to gel together rather than pushing for the first release at all, judging from what Reid had to say:

We were fortunate to raise a decent chunk of cash.  Tencent took a minority investment in us, so that gives us the opportunity to really just focus on working well as a team and making some cool stuff, so by the time we get to the point of going on said date, we have something interesting to show first.

If I think about when we're contrasting with Typhoon, it was a different time in the industry, but it was also a harder thing. The first time as a founder, you're learning everything. We knew how to make games, but we didn't necessarily know how to build a company.

It's undeniable the investment from Tencent is going to work out well for Raccoon Logic, with a level of job security likely rare for a brand new studio, the backing of a massive company like Tencent that is also seemingly very hands-off. Adding to this is the ownership of the Journey to the Savage Planet IP and six months worth of R&D, and you have a great start.

As for what will come of this seeming great start, we also spoke about this, and some general issues found within the games industry that I've touched upon, such as job security and the issues within big publishers. You can read about them by clicking through to the next page.

I've already covered some of the problems you can find working with some publishers, but while talking with Reid and Alex, it's interesting to hear more about the issues you can face internally. Issues often affect these companies' output and appear to be a driving factor in what gets produced.

As a follow-up to me stating that everything points towards Tencent being very hands-off any my belief that this seems to be the best method, Alex had this to say:

I think that's the way to do it, even within studios. Ubisoft used to be quite good at that - once you got going, and greenlit, they weren't micro-managers and they have the studios that can make new IP's. EA is production led and filled with micro-management, and I think that's what stops them making new IP's often enough. It's such a fight to get it through EA, whereas Ubi embraces it more and. It's different styles to different types of development.

I asked how they felt with the move from huge companies, to indie, to another huge company and now back to indie. Both had fascinating perspectives on this, with Alex saying:

The big difference is, at big studios you have more security in terms of funding, job security, and that sort of stuff. You pay it back by being shepherds of someones brands, so even when you emotionally own it, you don't own it. You're making a sequel or you're making a new IP for them, then they'll own it. They're a company, so they have no qualms about reminding you of that, if it gets to that point. They own that, you can be here or not, even if you could make it better.

We like the idea of owning our decisions and succeeding or failing on our own, and being able to make fast decisions. Big companies are just incredibly slow and the bigger they get, the longer they go on, the people that made that company have gone as well so you have more fear and paralysis, and a desire to just say no to everything because it's too risky. It just gets harder and harder to make anything, and we just like making stuff.

Reid followed up by saying:

I have absolutley no data to back this up, but I think working at a big company is the illusion of security, when you think about the amount of layoffs.

I think for us, we'd rather be a small, nimble, agile group. If we succeed, we can make everybody be a part of that and be successful. We fail and succeed by our own decisions, not because someone somewhere had to please shareholders, or there's a new boss and he or she doesn't like a particular game.

So many things come outside of your control, so we'd rather create a sustainable, positive and cool environment where people can do their best work, and not be at someones mercy.

Reid reiterated how he would love to run the data to see if there is a higher chance of being laid off at a giant or an indie because as more news comes out, the larger studios often don't feel secure.

On an interesting note, Alex mentioned how during his time as a creative director at large studios, he found that about fifty per cent of his time was reformatting the same information for different people. This was either to stop people from changing it, block edits, remind people why something was being done, or sell it down the line. Specifically, he stated that it could feel like an "endless debate that sucks the life out of you".

On a positive note leading on from this topic, more information on the development of Journey to the Savage Planet was revealed, as well as how Typhoon Studios was structured and how Raccoon Logic will continue, with Reid saying:

The team is really technical. We always joke that anyone we hire had to be able to do two jobs. At the AAA's, the large studios, you have hyper-specialisation - so you might have the one guy who just does the grass.

At Typhoon, Alex did all the writing and the design, I was doing production, HR and finance. We like people who are generalists, who want to get their hands in multiple things, which we believes it makes you a stronger and more adaptable group.

The cool thing about that is because we structured the company like that, we had no crunch on the first game. It was totally sustainable, which was awesome. We probably didn't say that enough when promoting it, but it was really cool that from start to finish, there was no crazy overtime and we're proud of that.

Alex continued with this topic, linking to what was said earlier, saying:

That all connects back to what we talked about before. The overtime comes from poor planning and/or a lack of consistency of what you're asking for. If, on the design side, I keep changing it, it just keeps adding work. If you allow to plan too much, it puts you behind the eight-ball.

That comes from the big studios too, always having to respond to external interference. If you can't fight it hard enough they will pile more food onto your plate, or they'll lose faith in a feature and make you re-do it. All these sorts of things.

The benefit of it [Typhoon], we were in control of the scope. We could have realistic meetings with people and get in front of it. So we could say we don't need that much of this feature, so don't worry about it, let's cut this early, or there's opportunity here, so let's prioritise that instead of chasing this other thing that isn't working.

When asked directly what they prefer, both expressed they prefer to work for themselves, though they had positives while working for larger companies.

What's First for Raccoon Logic

Whatever the first title is for Raccoon Logic, there are plans for them to experiment and work on various items. A particular question I asked was, "do you think you'll look at branching out, letting people experiment with ideas for smaller games. Make a quick mobile, something like that?".

They had certainly been thinking of that, Alex said:

I love the idea. We were pitching this idea, what we were calling Raccoon Shorts. This idea that between projects we could put something out that's an hour long, that's two-bucks or something.

I really like this idea of everybody doing their own thing and not be so precious about what we put out to market. Almost like if you're a band and occasionally just release a single. I think there's something cool in that. Maybe one of them takes off or people respond really well to it, you could evolve it into something bigger.

No matter what the first game will be, Raccoon Logic is looking to make an inclusive studio that will make games for the fun of making them and ones they're interested in making. Now, they're most certainly not going to be making a flight simulator, Alex really not being a fan of that style of game - much to the chagrin of myself and the PR who set up the interview.

What type of game will they make? Alex had this to say:

We like the wackier genres, so the sci-fi and fantasy, just because most of the team having worked for so many years on games that were either historically set, contemporary, and involving human beings. There's only so much, on the game design side, that you can stretch what human beings can do.

Random Thoughts and Final Takeaway

Beyond Good and Evil

While talking about publishers, I mentioned how Ubisoft used to make or publish practically anything and everything. The rest of the conversation went like this:

Chris Wray: You look at the games they made in the past... I'm still waiting for Beyond Good and Evil 2

Alex Hutchinson: [laughs] you and like those eight other people!

CW: I'm sure there's nine! There must be nine [laughs]

AH: No, I think it's always... The games that amuse me the most are games where there's this feeling there's a big audience waiting for it. Then I'm like, "Why did nobody buy it?" If everybody who purports to be a big fan had bought the first one, we'd be on Beyond Good and Evil 5.

CW: Yeah, that's true. I can't argue with that. Well, I bought it; I even bought a second copy too!

AH: Yep, I bought it too.

I can't disagree here. The sad reality is that so many games in the past have been clamoured for, only to find the audience isn't that large. Even going by SteamSpy, the original Beyond Good and Evil is only owned by between two-hundred to five-hundred thousand. While old, there has been so much talk about the game that you would imagine there'd be a larger number having grabbed it there.

Playing the Dog

I was never aware that the dog in Journey to the Savage Planet is based on the dog of Reid Schneider. Maybe you knew this, but I didn't. I like that dog; it also visited our chat, popping by to say hello and also likely to argue over image rights for the inevitable Journey to the Savage Planet 2.

Thoughts on Stadia

A long-running concern I've had about Stadia was the infrastructure, the network connections required. A fair point by Alex was on the fact that when Netflix and streaming really started, there were natural detractors there. Stadia as a concept is something with great potential and likely closer than we think.

Final Impressions

These are two people who have been in the industry at all levels, working on some of the biggest titles and starting their own company to create a successful indie title in Journey to the Savage Planet. The experience and insight are clear. Having regained their IP, having a level of security from Tencent, Raccoon Logic is a small but very experienced team that I can't help but imagine will result in something good.

Will it be Journey to the Savage Planet 2, will it be a game about Raccoon's, or will it be a fighting game about Pandas hitting each other with trash? Only time will tell, but I'm certainly going to be keeping an eye out and watching the company closely.

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